Tuawhā: Te Ao Māori | Te Ao Pākehā.
Of this Place: Kōrero with Pip Davies on what it means to be.
4/6
Of this Place at Akina gallery.
A peek into someone’s inner world.
A kōrero* to bring into your own world.
The following conversation took place at the end of February 2023, at AKINA Gallery in Hastings, New Zealand, Aotearoa. I sat with Pip Davies and Sacha Miriama van den Berg, and took in their stories, of what I later determined to centre around the themes of what it means to be.
Artist and Storyteller: Pip Davies
Gallery Curator and Co-Storyteller: Sacha Miriama van den Berg
As told to: Paige Kaye
Four / Tuawhā
Te Ao Māori / Te Ao Pākehā
Sacha: You say yes to the show and you know there will be surprises along the way but, in the context of contemporary New Zealand and conversations about being Māori—and what does that mean? With Te Titiri and things like that?
Not accidentally, because I think everything just happens because it's meant to, her exhibition created a lot of conversation and it was a space to do that. And I think an audience who may not normally have those conversations were going there, in a safe space, and we could curate that.
Pip: And Rosie’s part of that, the writer who wrote the essay and is another bridge. I see, Sasha as this bridge and bridging is what we need to do, to reach across and to make pathways. Rosie opened a different pathway, broadened it into a contemporary conversation. And we were both blown away by the depth of thought that she put into her response. And for me, the full experience of doing it was completed by that. I was so grateful to have that moment and time placed on the page.
Paige: How did it feel seeing everything up for the first time?
Pip: Well, for me, I had done exhibitions, but they were all on my own. In this experience, I was supported. And that was such a warm hug really, the whole experience. Every time I came in, there was something extra. And the conversations before, during and after the event that happened in the space.
Sacha: Actually, there was a lot of lead up and a lot of engagement and relationships formed leading up as well. And again, it's one of those peripheral things that occur that you don't anticipate.
Pip: Going to openings is something that I just don't do; I'm not a very sociable person. And in every other opening I've ever been to was people just talking and not really looking at the work and it's sort of not even that friendly. For this I thought: I know Sasha, I'm going to support her. This is what I'm going to make myself do. And so I came to the opening for Rakai Karaitiana and I was just so welcomed.
Sasha introduced me to a couple of women and I sat down next to Nephi (Tupaea) and she'd just finished Toi Mairangi (just doen her final presentation that afternoon). She was winding down and so I just sat with her and I said, “I’ve got an exhibition coming up here”, and she was like, “Oh, we'll come!” You know, like awesome straightaway! “Well, we'll always support Sasha, we’re part of the whānau.” It's a big thing. It’s awesome and I’m in and I'm welcome and there is no competition here. There is no defending of someone's patch which is often the case, especially in art, It's like there's only so much money going around and so therefore, you know, I sort of want it my way.
That's not my motive. I'm not a producer. The work speaks to people personally and it's got nothing to do with who gets in first, you know. It was such a lovely thing and I talked to her about Toi Mairangi, so that was the first talk of that place. When I was doing my degree at EIT there was no connection. I mean, Toi Mairangi has been here for all that time, decades, and we knew it was there, but it wasn’t really acknowledged. We had a night at a marae near home, but I never really ‘got it’. Gosh, you know, and, and I own that, you know, I've always been neutral, I've had a neutral stance on anything Māori. It's not been a challenge, its not been a threat, it's not been, it's just been like, good on you guys. But that's not my story.
Because, you know, it's hard enough to do what I do as an artist, not that that excuses anything, but it’s because of the timing of this country. What has happened in the last 5-10 years, and how te reo is built into our daily lives now, and how teo reo is built into our daily lives now the conversations are inclusive, and I'm feeling more comfortable with going, well, maybe I could be part of this. My sister started to learn te reo, but I'm far more visual than aural.
I asked Nephi, “What comes away from your experience of Toi Mairangi?” And she said, “It's the community of creatives that I now belong in.” I never got that with EIT. And that was a direct comparison. I came out with a degree and some skills, but no community. You know, no curiosity about creativity. You feel like they're doing their job and then off you go. Next lot come in, and you go oh, okay. It’s not that you want someone to hold your hand. It's not that. But it's like friendships, isn't that the point? Friendships.
Sacha: It's really hard to articulate it. When you distil it down, that's the difference between Māori operation and non-Māori operation. It's a thing, it's that you can't really put words to it. It's a feeling; you've got a cup of tea before you know it, you can be late and they don't care and they're going to your house and all that, but like, there's a difference. That's the biggest difference.
Pip: At EIT we were taught to be respectful, misappropriation definitely in the conversation and I respect that. I know that I'm not going to Toi Mairangi to change what I do or because I'm running out of ideas, I just want to learn. I come into this as a Pāhekā who's trying not to be culturally entitled in any way, I leave my ego at the door and I’m just curious. It does us good. It does me good to know, and acknowledge that I’m ignorant and I want to do something about it.
Sacha: That's so beautiful Pip. Like it takes such a special person to say that and acknowledge that and embrace it, you turn it into something so powerful and it's so beautiful. And I just love how the moment it happened (that you're talking about Toi Mairangi), you very much become part of the whānau really quickly because you initiated that ,came to openings and I will say how they welcomed you is a response to you. Not everyone gets it, it's about how you approached it. So that's such a nice thing it’s how you are, like how you were with it.
So honestly, every time Pip popped in someone from Toi Mairangi would walk through doors, and that's how this place works; like this place always brings people together and I just have to think of who I need to see and they come through the door. That's so beautiful, it’s just got this thing inside. And then you chatted with someone else from Toi Mairangi, a second conversation with someone apart from opening. This thought popped into my head and I was like, “have thought about studying at Toi Mairangi?”
It just popped out and look at where its going!
Pip: Yes, I was determined to go and look because I thought it’s wrong that I've never even gone to have a look. It was like when the shows open and up then I'm going to go and see, you know, walk in the door and be present.
So when Sasha said that I was like, “No, I hadn't thought of that.” But, then I started saying, “would I be welcome?” You know, that's the Pāhekā response, “oh, would I be welcome?” Because this is really special to Māori. So why should I have a right to be there? And you basically said the way you are, turn up and have a look.
Sacha: Go say hi, it’s not something you can ask, you've got to go there and gauge it, it's the vibe both ways.
Pip: And it was, and I did. So I did. And so when I turned up I met Tracy (Keith). I'd already met him in another conversation in Akina, and who was an artist who had already exhibited there. I said I’d met him at Akina and his show and he was like, “oh, right, come in, and just welcome.” And I just sat down with him and Michelle who run the those degree levels. They said is what we do and it sounded good for me so I did the enrolment then and there. I said, what what do you think it's appropriate? You know, I’m not here for any other reason than to learn. So you tell me where I should start? Nothing to prove, right. So I signed up for the certificate in Māori Art.
It's just fun. But iIt's not frivolous. They gave me a beautiful phrase to take away. And it was from an essay and it was an explanation of the word, rangahau. It explained it as being like research, but the poetic phrasing was, in learning, we live, in living, we grow and in growing and we evolve.
For me, to learn is to make art, I do it to explore ideas and to learn. I'm really excited to learn. And it makes sense to learn here, to be at this place because I’m a fifth generation New Zealander and it’s taken time. Tthe first ones went back to England to be educated, (the boys). It's only our generation that is starting to look at learning te reo or learning more than some songs. And it's, it's the time, it's happening. A lot is happening now and embrace it for goodness sake! I don't understand the fear and I think the best thing I can do as a Pākehā woman is to show other Pākehā that there's nothing to fear, it’s actually really exciting, and it's gonna make us better.
Sacha: Get with it or get left behind.]! [all laugh]
Pip: Much like the feminist thing, you know, like the men who couldn't embrace that, they're gonna die eventually. So yeah, don't worry about them, because you're never going to get everybody.
And gosh there’s plenty of push back at the moment, but I don't even hear it anymore. I go with such enthusiasm and like to tell people, I'm doing this certificate in Māori Arts because I want to learn; what can someone say? They can only say, ‘good on you’. Yeah, there is no pushback to that.
This community was in plain sight this whole time, right? But I have to be ready to move from being me to being we, right? And you can walk through all your life and you don't know that that's what you need. But you are looking for connection.
Sacha: Even I'm going through that. When I started Akina gallery, I think I was very naive in rose coloured glasses, and this and that. Where I'm at eight months in, and it's quite different to before. And also for me, you know, I'm reconnecting with my marae and whanaunatanga of ours and what that means and what my role can be and how I do things. I'm 40 now, that's like, wow, that's a long journey. And what the cool thing is, and with having this gallery is the next generation, how simple we can make it, more accessible. They don’t have to go through all the hang ups, like having Pounamu (my daughter) here, who meets all the artists, and this is our extended family. And so it's cool going through my journey with other people going through their journeys as well as just from a different way and the different outcomes, but similar thing: collectiveness, community, shared, we not me.
What lights me up the most about moving through the journey and seeing the next generation is the normality of things that were awkward for me. Her [Pounamu] knowing more te reo than me, already speaking to her friends and they know it. People switching on Te Matatini and engaging with it . So, all of these things that was super awkward for me and they still are because I'm still learning, just being normal for her.